Italy & UK - 4 participants
Interview Details
- Region: Europe: Italy & UK
- Language: English
- Interviewees: Leo (pseudonym); Dagamr; Maria; Massio
- Interviewers: Terry Dunne & Mags Liddy
- Date: 2017
- Description: Anonymized transcript - 4 participants, speaking about Italy and the UK. [Note from interviewer: this was anonymized as per the interviewees request - The audio file are not available. I have left some parts in bold where I was unclear about the spelling of the names of particular individuals or organisations. ]
- Transcript: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/h4fjy5536ze078s9qbr73/PGA-Europe-1-transcript-anoymized.docx?dl=0&rlkey=c657ydii4fj6v2zjkwx9lf9xb
Transcript
Terry Dunne: Well we’ll start with the Zapatistas. Can you tell us a little bit about how the Zapatistas influenced movements in Europe in the process that led to the establishment of Peoples’ Global Action
Leo: Well the Zapatistas were, as I mentioned before, a fundamental turning point in European grassroots politics and fundamental really because they changed the foundations, the premises of doing grassroot politics in Europe after the seasons following the late 70s. The previous big movement in Europe was in Italy in the 70s, but also in Europe, in many parts of Europe in different ways, and then became the big season of neoliberalism — in the beginning of the 80s, late 70s beginning of 80s.
The season of neoliberalism, and the response to neoliberalism, was very much rooted in the, an old way of doing politics, movements that were splitting, or merging the single cause movements etcetera, but that were not able to find a ground for meshing, for you say unity, to come together. And the Zapatistas in a sense provided a methodology, horizons through which we could search to build bridges across movements. And I participated in the first encuentro, and the second encuentro. First one was in 1996 in Chiapas and .., as I mentioned before there, the Zapatistas in a sense put European and North American movements in contact with a different methodology implemented in the way they organize the encuentro. I was in the economic mezza, the economic table for example, and in that table we discuss for a few days. 03:19] There were about 80 of us from coming from different backgrounds, national background, ideological background, movements background. We had Trotskyists, feminists, environmentalists, socialists, and anarchists and whatever you may think of, all discussing the economy in a critical aspect and what to do about it.
In our discussion we had two Zapatista representatives, in balaclavas never saying anything for the whole period. But right at the end of that period they simply ask us to write a document for a following day to be presented at the plenary together with all the other documents produced in the different tables.
And that was key! Because we were all waiting for their summing up of the conclusion, their own selection what they thought was good, and what was not that good or bad. After all they were the one who mobilize and took everybody imagination by this new type of rebellion in the middle of the 90s. Now they did not want to teach anything. They wanted to learn from us and consistently until then. So we find ourselves in a situation that we had to write this things together and started to think through our ideological differences. So what the Zapatistas did was the breaking up of the ideologies- that is the ideology as a methods of doing politics, of doing grassroots organizing, of doing the movement. So that’s the first element they’re coming together to finding a common ground.
The second element was simply that there was something missing in both encuentros, in ‘96 in Chiapas and ‘97 in Spain. And that was large sections of the planet. What the Africa, for example, the African movement was completely underrepresented, as well as Asian movements were completely underrepresented.
So I remember them discussing this with two, at least one became very important but also the second that was one, the first one was of course Olivier, who I met, I saw in Chiapas but didn’t actually meet but I met at the second encuentro when we worked together. We eere very much together in doing the same thing in Chiapas that is producing this document, building bridges among different positions and we discuss with Olivier and Ramon from …
Mags Liddy: from Spain? Ecologicas?
Leo: Yes that is right. Aguilar Gutierrez. Maybe I’m wrong. I don’t remember his last name correct.
Ramon was an incredible mediating figure, really powerful and we were work as three very much close to one another, in our discussions precisely, the idea we discussed was of course we have to find a way clearly, at that time we were thinking about a third encuentro, we didn’t know there would not be any more encuentros of that type. But it was definitely pointed out there that there was something missing, what was missing from this movement — what was missing was connecting with these amazing movements that were starting to emerge which include Latin America and North America and in Europe, also African and Asian movements
So in those two elements the Zapatista movement were fantastic and the PGA movement in fact if you think about who participated in the beginning we had a European network and mostly Asian network coming together with some South American networks as well. But I don’t think at any point they actually meshed together as we hoped in the beginning.
Mags Liddy: In what way do you mean meshed?
Leo: well become part of the same network, the same .. . not organization, it was spelled out not to be an organisation, though it was a kind of organisation, it didn’t have a leader but it had channels to communicate and therefore circulate struggles. 09:15] But yes that was what was the original idea.
Another element that come from the Zapatistas in a sense is the kind of assembly or features of its decision-making and its writing up for example the first constitution, of course are adding up all sorts of gestures, meanwhile various people have learned of and defined to summarize aspects of the timeout, and agree and so on, you know..
Mags Liddy: oh the hand signals.
Leo: Yes the hand signals — that were definitely not in Chiapas. I don’t know, American, European or where they come from but they were fantastically useful in a sense. Everybody knew do like this,….I remember also some occasion, with some Asian comrades in Italy. [hand signals demonstrated and giggles]
Yes, the platform for example the first document, the constitution of 98, how was it called this document
Mags Liddy: This isn’t the hallmarks no?
Leo: The hallmarks are five points yes but there is a longer document, the constitution, I think it was called the constitution, I think you should look at it. It was revised later on — I haven’t really studied the difference, evolution. I was slightly more distant to that level of engagement in PGA although still active various movements but in ‘98 there was a constitution, in February ’98, I think. And all these different sections came together and we worked in table, all together, trying to sort out disagreements. Most of us didn’t know one another. So there were cultural specificities or political specificity, language specificity, it was all this sort of thing and but we used the same methods of coming together, to discuss and trying to find solutions to conflict. Reaching a point in which we could mediate and if you couldn’t reach an agreement then get in an authoritative person, a person that we all respected, so I remember in one case, I don’t know if this makes any sense to you, or is of interest to you, but I’ll say it anyways it is just a flashback O.K.. I remember in one case when we were writing up the old constitution, in the very first article is saying, we wrote in our table, the history of capitalism is filled with blood and destruction, exploitation, expropriation all these things. And I remember some guy from an organization in the United States like America for Democracy I think was the group, or something like this, and he could not accept that, not because he disagreed but because his constituency would not accept that.
Mags Liddy: okay
Leo: okay – it was too harsh language okay and we had a long discussion about that and so we had to break this stall, we brought Medha Patkar, from Narmada, do you know?, the activist from Narmada valley. She was a sociologist who worked in the university and then retired from her work to join a very long struggle of the Narmada River. And that figure was an amazing figure, someone who spoke plain language non-ideological language. Whenever she spoke she diffused both anger and love at the same time. She was amazing. So we call her in and there is a dispute on these. We read this sentence, and she is wagging her head, and she says of course its bloody history. What is the problem? So we all agree, that was first so that is the kind of thing — otherwise is all very convivial. Again there was a Zapatista mark in what we did, in that sense.
Terry Dunne: What do you think was the main strengths of Peoples’ Global Action, what impact did it have?
Dagamr: certainly the international, the transnational, transnationalism —it was to bring together the various struggles around the globe under one constitution basically. But these struggles were so diverse, in all different parts of the world, whether it was in Latin America and Asia or in Europe. But at the same time it was something that they brought together under the constitution where everybody could define itself, even though you might have lived in Europe, you may not necessarily share the hardship of an Indian farmer or somebody from Latin America. But to a certain extent we understood immediately that we were, that is something that yes we can identify ourselves with it.
And for me and I think also for many others who has become increasingly frustrated with the local politics, where we could see more and more the privatization and the financialisation happening in Europe, that here we could actually find a logic, how to break out of national politics and find something different. We had no idea what we were looking for. I mean, you know no idea where we are coming from.
And so it was also something to search for. Peoples’ Global Action the protest but I actually really liked about those protests was not — part of that was going into the streets with a banner but it was also the preparation and also the convergence centres, the convergence centres on every of those protest which actually has never been mentioned in any of those newspapers because it was always on the protest. 17:57] But there was always four days of discussion around it where people from around the world came and discussed on the issues to which we actually could relate to whether it was on migration, whether it was GM, whether it was on the privatization of water etc.. and so those convergence centres was vital in formulating and pushing forward in our local politics.
Leo: Yes
Maria: Then when we went back home to carry on those issues and trying to define new ways, even though we were not really sure what we are looking for but trying but we engaged locally in protest and in occupations. And at the same time we dealt also on the local level. I’m speaking on London with the GLA and with other movements across London and even in the UK. And one of those … so that actually had an impact then on formulating other ways and by that we realised actually how strong the repression is when you’re up against those movements like say there’s a migration movement, and also with the anti-GM movement. So in that we see the more is pushed locally, the more we became more closer to the global actions and because we experienced much more repressed, much more repression.
Terry Dunne: and in Britain was there a particular, there was a particular trajectory in terms of the British involvement in PGA. Would I be right in saying because most of the networks that become involved in PGA from Britain were coming from an environmental movement. So how did that work. What was the process through which political perspectives there become broader, and linked up internationally. Coming from, well from say a specifically environmental issues, and widening their vista? Why is that.
Maria: . to broader issues … OK. Yes that’s a good point. Well migration was actually was one of the last things that came actually also into England. Migration was already kinda a movement already in Italy or in Germany. There was already something and that came, then moved on to England by realising that the detention camps were coming into the U.K. and so those detention camps were then the first target points in the movement. And then migration was not necessarily easy, an easy topic, o.k., because I remember meetings arguing that there are also undocumented migrants who don’t necessarily finish going through the process of getting refugee status, or getting permanent stay, they opted it out, maybe because they have already been deported and then they came back or basically they had no need of doing it because immigration policies, actually in the U.K. migration was much more open. Only under Blair it became much more restrictive, much more restrictive. It was literally every single day they produced a law to illegalize migrants and so they pushed people into illegality.
And I remember actually it was a very strong discussion we’ve had within migration, within no borders to open up to illegal migrants because people felt like Oh that is not necessarily how we want to deal with. I mean it was really a struggle to put undocumented migrants also onto the agenda in that because detention was easy because you had those people behind bars and behind fences and you had GS4 who were managing all those camps. So it was a direct thing . . . .
Mags Liddy: It was very visible
Maria: whereas the illegal migrants who were working like for the Goldman Sachs or for ISS or for all those service industries it was very difficult to actually access them. So I pushed then for these undocumented migrants and work then along that line. 23:24] And at one point actually brought them together where we realised actually those things detention and undocumented migrants are actually one and the same coin. But it wasn’t necessarily that PGA was necessarily something that started it, it was actually more like an internal process to No Borders.
Leo: I think, to go back your question that in Britain, at least it is my impression, right in the 90s, I think quite early in the 90s, I think there was an environmental movement before RTS, yes yes RTS was an environmentalist movement but also the way to organise hinted at a different way to organise socially. I mean the movement started with tree huggers and the anti-McDonalds struggles, no.
Maria: It was the M25, roads.
Leo: The struggle to prevent the building of new motorways or enlargement of current motorways. But I think that RTS became quite, it was clearly comes from an environmentalist movement, but also especially at the beginning, in the very early events of Reclaim the Streets, there was a different, it was to show a different way to organise the city, because the Reclaim the Streets street. I remember the very first Reclaim the Street, a couple in Brixton it was fantastic. Activists came down and not just stopped traffic but in that .. .temporary autonomous zones created by these people coming in, they were creating spaces, spaces for children, for example, like sand-pits were brought in. There were children playing in the middle of a crossway, or a variety of other y’know entertainers, clowns came in and all that and in in that self-organised space you had building different relations. So there was a hint of also, of what the city could be. And course slowly also a critique of capital as a whole of capitalism as a whole in all its mechanisms [00:26:25] So the connection to PGA was an enlargement of, but also the awareness of the different type of struggles, but also the different type of realities that needed to be brought together after all we are in global capital therefore the struggle was transnational.
Terry Dunne: There was also a period where Reclaim the Streets if I remember correctly made links with the Liverpool dockers and…
Leo: Oh yes, absolutely, that was fundamental because that built bridges with the trade unions and the working class movement, the typical working class movement, that again linked the environmentalist movement to a broader issue.
Terry Dunne: this I think was before PGA…
Leo: That’s true, four years before.
Maria: Because there was Earth First!, that was actually the front-runner for RTS, then RTS came out with the Street Parties, in 97 it was in Trafalgar square, and then one in Brixton in 98. Yes 97 in Trafalgar Square and then in 98 shut down the financial district. And that was a clear message against financialisation of livelihood.
Mags Liddy: that was J18?
Terry Dunne: So what were the limitations of PGA? what if there was say — what lesson does PGA give as maybe to the right way of doing things, what message does it give us to what would be the wrong way to do things, that we can draw for the future, from that experience, what strikes you as its strength and what strikes you as its weakness.
Dagamr: For me it definitely it was international aspect and it was definitely to bring together
Terry Dunne: as a strength ?
Dagamr: as a strength, to bring together the different struggles and it certainly since this, it was like PGA was like a synonym for the antiglobalization movement, I assume, even though in the detail, it may not necessarily look like PGA like say No Borders, or Indymedia, or the anti-GM movement but they definitely resulted from the PGA
There was this period where there was a lot of discussion happening there on the local level and that was definitely a strength, how to develop it further Now I think well since more and more people got into their own projects more and more we kind of lost sight overtime to actually bring that all together under one banner saying yes where was actually our starting point and thinking OK what we have — now let’s take a step back and see what have we actually achieved from that period.
And I think that was, or is still lacking, in a sense, that there is not enough reflection was going on, anymore, because we were so engaged in our local struggles.
And then also the difficulty in making more sense of what was actually happening around us because we also developed our own personal lives. And then we started also becoming more confronted on a personal level much more like that globalized world. But that was different to the activism, difficult to combine those things more and more as well.
And I guess I think there was a lot at one point they lacked reflection of it. For example, the slashing of the migration movement you know No Borders. You could have if we had like more bridges done with the GM movement or perhaps with others or maybe with the PGA rootedness — maybe that has not really happened or maybe there have been some reflection okay what can we do then afterwards.
But after No Borders or after the movement was repressed there was not necessarily reflection on what can we do know, afterwards it was becoming much okay, people kind of retreated to themselves.
Terry Dunne: Can you just expound upon the detail of the process of the repression of the No Borders movement in Britain?
Maria: well for that, you also have to understand how things have developed at the beginning. as I said earlier it was only on detention and then it started being also moving into the undocumented migrants campaign and that is where the living wage campaign started as well. And the trade union, the T&G got involved and there was Valéria, Valéria [unclear, otsaga?] she was a fantastic campaigner from the U.S. who came over and then she started that campaign with these militants. There were people from RTS who worked then on this campaign with her and then with that background moved into making linkages in to different fields, like with universities with small organisations like the telco (?) which is like low wage organisation for low income people, with also like the church, with other immigration and migration organisations etc. and it has become a really huge campaign where demonstrations happened regularly. We even managed to get the undocumented migrants out in the streets to demonstrate with a promise that they were not being arrested. We dealt with the police and that was successful. There were a series of occupations happening in different buildings of Goldman Sachs to ISS etc … — continuously like for three weeks to pressurize on them giving them social wage like a higher wage and then actually at one point there was actually a deals with the GLA that migrants were getting a higher wage, but not the undocumented migrants because undocumented migrants once again they — even if they pay taxes they cannot claim housing benefits or child taxes. So we saw that for example they went to the bank cleaning, some person from the HR office, human resource office, say come into the office, we wanna check, to give you a briefing and then there was immigration. They called immigration.
So they deported key figures of the movement and deported them, right? And so that was actually the beginning of the repression. Because we realized more and more people every week of those key organizers, of the undocumented migrants were being arrested, or they were being laid off from the company.
And so it was a systematic basis, they started very small internally to identify them these people and then at the end the T&G like just two weeks before they made the deal with the government, that was all aimed for actually making a deal with the government that they get a proper deal and then they moved them out of the negotiation table. The T&G moved in, they immediately closed down the campaign and laid all these people off one of the key organizing people was a Chinese trade unionist who was dealing with these Chinese people who were working in restaurants just for a pound or something and they circulated Soho and said nobody can go in and nobody can go around and they comb through the restaurants and have arrested everybody who was illegal and said you cannot speak to the government and to the media. And they did the same with the Latin American community. They closed off Elephant and Castle the market and said nobody can go in and nobody can go out — check the papers and then and then they took them on board. But they did not have a…. And that it was our weakness of the movement because we could not support those people. We had no support system either from the trade unions or even from the movement itself we could not stem that repression.
Terry Dunne: just for clarity - there was two prongs there. There was the deportation of the undocumented workers especially key activists. But there was also the trade union staff who were working on this issue were fired by the trade unions
Maria: well they closed off the campaign and then were laid off yeah.
Terry Dunne: We will come back to migration but I also wanted to ask you what you felt the great strength of PGA was and also what the limitation, the limitation was just for attempting an organization like this in the future.
Leo: Yeah. Well one of the great strengths was this ambition to bring together such a variety of movements across the globe, put them in a circuit of communication, communications and an elaboration of strategies, an attempt to build common campaigns and there was ambition, ambitious and it was good ambitious, a good ambitious thing. Perhaps one of the weaknesses is in, but we didn’t know at the time, I think, we, not just PGA but that entire section of movements discovered, rediscovered direct action to certain extent. For a time, it worked as a method of organization for struggle for movement, for stopping enclosures, those plans of expansions and other horrible things that capital organizers want to get done. Direct action worked for a while. Until of course the state learned how to contain it. It was very visible in London. after a couple of years after June, June 18.
Maria: it was already in the WTO it was 4 months later.
Leo: only four months later?
Maria: Yes the there was the end that was the WTO. There was a very different environment..
Interviewee4: and not just environment is that the police to simply stop the movement, the direct action movement was based on not just on central demonstrations, but it was based on an analysis, a constellation of actions of smaller actions that were of course all organised before or at least were coordinated before.
And the police immediately learned, it very soon learned how to stop, to contain them and even contain a big demonstration in MayDay- one of them, Mayday 2000 I remember for some reason I have Mayday 2000 in my mind and the entire Trafalgar Square was contained in a police kittling exercise. That was amazing. So the police just surrounded us and then slowly press us up like making us explode.
Maria: Was that 2000?
Leo: It was very early, it was very early after that and then they learned to contain smaller actions out of the big demonstration and so on. So it became clear that —I mean direct action I’m not saying something against direct action it’s direct action it’s very good as a tool. Maybe together with others.
But the other limitation as well of the PGA, it was a network of social movements and social movements do protest. And I’m all for protesting. But of course we perhaps thought like pretty much all type of social movement that in order to change the world, we just have to protest. And that was part of the PGA. There was talk of alternatives, there were small project in and within the PGA network in Spain. Our friend from the day …
Maria: that was only in 2000.
Leo: Okay so out of that yes..
Maria: do you mean Eskandar?
Leo: Yes yes
Terry Dunne: Eskanda came out of PGA?
Maria: Yeah
Leo: So there was in a sense also an understanding that you have to build, construct some structure what we call today commons, whatever that we want to define that but we need to build alternative mode of life and economies and societies. Whatever we don’t know we don’t want to go into details of that or the complexity of that even. But it’s obviously that awareness become strong out of.. which is a different form of direct action, incidentally no? it is not protests in direct action, its a construct in direct action, which sooner or later will meet the need of protesting because the capital is an enclosing force, is an expropriating force. So struggle comes as almost as… a moment of a devolution of these realities that you want to build and connect.
Maria: I actually think there was coming out of that was — I mean talking about migration which was a bit complicated but for the green movement anti-GM, of course it was like a protest against GM and it was a very visible campaign against Monsanto corporation and maybe Cargill as well, but on a local level there was a permaculture in Britain, came out of it as well . permaculture …why are you smiling
Leo: this is good .. PGA was fertile … [laughs]
Maria: permaculture is a holistic way of living is not just like growing vegetables. It’s about .. ok you nod as if you know about it.
Mags Liddy: Sure
Dagamr: And so it’s a very different way of how to approach it. And I look for example at Land Matters in Devon, I did actually my certificate there. It was part of Earth activist training and there was Starhawk who was part of that, the leader and who was also like this anti-globalisation campaigner.
Leo: there is a one associate PGA, what was her name? Genoa. Well yeah there were several other
Mags Liddy: yeah. Her name has come up before in interviews
Leo: she is great she has great organizers she’s a.
Mags Eliza.. from Texas
Rita.
So this kind of thing is like kind of like rooted into something very different, where you start life from scratch with a very different approach. So you go in a very opposite direction if you are getting you know, if you realize OK protest is one way, but where is it where we can start our lives in a concrete way in very different ways. And so permaculture is or the movement around it I think is also one of those aspects that came out of it and as much as now the food sovereignty has in Europe because food sovereignty is a movement that emerged directly to the WTO. Because it says, food sovereignty, you cannot enclose resources the basic resources how we produce our food. So. 46:47] So these are direct responses to these things and obviously you cannot just, you carry them out into the streets and then you go back and then you build it differently, and shape the relations differently, or new relations around it, how to make it happen.
Terry Dunne: you were saying before we started the formal interview that the food sovereignty movement Italy was heavily influenced by the experience of Genoa and PGA- could you expand
Maria: well those small scale producers who just finished their agrarian studies in Bologna who were trained by becoming just another producer in the global supply chain or the global production chain, producing maybe let’s say milk. But you are becoming alienated from the process. You’re just having to produce this X amount of milk for that producer and you completely lose your contact to the consumer. And they decided no we don’t want to do this. We don’t want to become part of this European or global production line. So they decided once they have been to Genoa they got in contact or they heard about La Via Campesina there and they heard about food sovereignty, the definition of food sovereignty and about the concept in general and they thought well that’s a way perhaps to approach it locally in Italy. And they come from Bologna, close to here. And so there were only a few producers, let’s say three or four producers who said yes let’s start that and together with a bunch of consumers who also did not want to be part, to buy their products some organic products flown in let’s say from Kenya or some other areas.
Mags Liddy: Israel
Maria: For example, you know so we want to have a true sustainable food production and organic and locally and also be … And it’s a key thing to generate income. We also need to live. Cannot just produce things for the local market. And so we also have a right to have an income of what we produce. And so they started on those ambitious objectives, to put that in place locally. And they have rewritten their organic standard on the local level what does it mean actually organic and true organic which means to protect the local biodiversity, to use and recycle the resources you have, zero kilometers transportation costs etc etc.
And at the same time because the organic, European organic labelling system is a farce. You pay 20,000 euro if you’re in production if you are a cheese maker, if you maybe a vegetable producer you can maybe get away with 500 euros a year. But if you actually transform the food it’s horrendous expensive. So who can afford that. Certainly not in Italy who are making an income of between 1000-1200 euros a month. They simply cannot afford this. So they decided- they heard about the self-certifying organic process, coming from Movimento dos Trabalhadores Sem Terra in Brazil. And they said well maybe that’s a way forward.
So they started that the, PGS it’s called participatory guarantee system and it’s a concept which is carried out by consumers and producers
Terry Dunne: Just for the sake of adding details, you were saying this they organise association which combines producers and consumers, organizes farmers’ markets
Maria: yes. And they also have to deal with the local council, for market licenses etc. It’s not like .. they also apply for market licenses right. It’s not like that they’re being illegal or something like that and they also say we are Genuinely Clandestino … they are called Genuinely Clandestino, the label which is the government is making us illegal and it’s not like that we are illegal. The government is making us illegal because they’re making, they’re putting up horrendous prices and they are setting up the hygiene level for food production on a level of for large economies of scale rather than for the small scale producers. So for that reason they say we are producing in the eyes of the government illegal. 52:04] So Genuinely Clandestino, but we have our own products.
Leo: I think here we are really a step further than PGA, I don’t think we can directly…Well I mean to say look at the history, the evolution I mean PGA was good at a particular moment in time, then the whole movement realised, you need to be creative and to build alternatives, like in case of these farmers Dagamr is referring to. Here we have a combination of strategies and tactics and organisational forms that come together. There is direct action, for example, in one instance the council did not want to give them authorization to use a central square for the market while instead they gave it to a different food organisation which is linked to the government. And they occupy the square and had their markets until they agree they could have it — that’s direct action. As it is in a different sense the direct action of actually organising this network, and making it possible to bring together farmers and consumers, decided together they did the criteria for the guarantee certificate, certified guarantee, no.
So it’s it’s — there is even lobbying in a sense, lots of pressure to the city government. So is it’s a mixture. That’s why the hallmarks, the famous hallmarks of the PGA ought to be updated. They’re too restrictive. I think they wanted to —I think in that sense Europeans, because it brought together some type of movements in Europe, I think — I mean I guess this, I’m not sure about this but I guess that the European influence in drafting those hallmarks were higher than others. Especially on that point of direct action as the only, only methods. Direct Action is great. You have to be flexible and use the appropriate tactic in that given circumstances. The context is fundamental, the relations of forces on the ground are fundamental. You cannot always do — we go direct action because that’s the only way. [Italian.. ].
Dagamr: Yes I wanted to say something. What is also very important I think and that is why the company, that local association in Bologna is also quite successful is that there is a constant reflection on what is going on politicalas well. it’s not like that they are just setting out the principles and the market rules etc. but they’re constantly engaging in the political debate and it’s so they know how in relation to food for example what is happening, how the laws are changing, what sort of campaigns are happening. But also what approaches are coming out there. They are using experimentation [loud noise..] other ecological methods.. they were trying to stay also in the loop and being on the critical side and not giving too to sit back and say we have done it but actually maintaining their critical edge to that. And in this maybe also necessarily to update it.
Terry Dunne: You were saying that the organizational structure of the association is somewhat assembly-based somewhat horizontal. Can you speak to that exactly how that works.
Maria: do you want to respond to that…
Leo: O.K. there are different types of assemblies. Yeah. There is a market assembly, there are five markets, six markets now. Each market has its own assembly of producers and consumers. :57:27] Each market the producer and consumer define first of all and this is amazing to me, the prices of those goods okay given a pretty good standard. The producers and consumers — not through demand and supply, or a sort of impersonal mechanism but through negotiation and discussion within the assembly; so for a particular product, of a particular standard that has to guarantee both an income and also be also be cheap enough for the consumers and of course good quality certified by the certification. It also the assembly, the market assembly also define who is in, who is out. So that is the boundary of the market. Not that is not open to other producers but in order to become part of it as a producer especially you’ll have to make sure you meet certain criteria.
So they come to visit, a representative of the assembly or producers so the same time, the new person, and represent consumers, come in check how you are doing it, whether you have employees, how you treat employees, what is their wages, how you produce the stuff you produce, what you produce because as a producer you cannot sell things that you do not produce, things taken by others, because the assembly doesn’t trust others it trusts you. Now that’s how it works. This is the market assembly, the operational assembly, and there are other assemblies in which not all participate, but the most political ones, who want to participate, which are more about political issues in the cities — expansion 59:17] how do we expand so representatives of all markets come in to decide how we deal it in order to have another market or to deal with the cities and finally another assembly which is even less regular, well it is regular but there is more distance in time between the meetings, is a more political, national, assembly meaning how do we expand our way of doing it throughout Italy.
Maria: Because that organisation which started it was the first organization in Bologna and it has been replicated now throughout Italy. It is one of the fastest social movements now in Italy.
Terry Dunne: Okay, just a point of clarification. How as a consumer do I enter the assemblies.. . I mean is there a set amount which I must buy? You just come
Also what is interesting is that they are actually linking up their struggles to the past struggles. It’s not just like that they see themselves as a new struggle they actually understand the history from the briganti what is happening like at the end of the 19th century here in Emilia-Romagna, also the formation of the nation, what is happening in those days and with the formation of those movements and how they develop etc.. But there is a consciousness to this and so for example one of the campaigns they are having now is they’re actually making a solidarity to the undocumented migrants in Apulia because they see them as seasonal workers and a parallel to what has happened to seasonal workers 120 years ago.
Terry Dunne: Is there anything ye want to add before we wrap up? Anything not covered earlier?
Leo: I think, just one thing I wanted to say before, PGA is one of the many instances of social movements in a particular phase, end of the 90s/beginning of the new century out of which there is a variety of things emerged, not just the PGA, and perhaps, I don’t know how this phase will last, but I think it is important to really understand it as a phase, and what has produced is a series of subjectivities which go in different directions and produce something new and create something new, I think most of them have abandoned the dogma of purely direct action and use it more instrumentally we were talking before about Barcelona en Comú so we even have the parliamentary road coming out of PGA as we have small communes around Europe and village associations and perhaps through the link with Via Campesina Genuinely Clandestino it really is a phase that begins something other and perhaps we reach a point that this level of re-composition now, that PGA as other movements, have represented, it has obtained at a higher level, a different level definitely, perhaps higher in the sense that it will bring the experience not just of individual subjects but of people who have done something in their own localities, who have built something, so maybe we get to the commons movements, not just social movements, that is to say movements not just of people but of communities which are building alternatives, so who knows.
Maria: For me it was like, PGA, looking back, was an important jumping board, into globalizing our struggle, that you were actually part, even though you were locally-based, but you were actually part of a global movement and that has actually given a sense that you actually make an impact on where you were locally. It doesn’t matter where you actually were whether you were in a city or in a village, at that time I happened to be in a city, so in a way I think PGA has actually fulfilled that thing and the way it has evolved into different dimensions, I actually think that is a new story, but definitely for the movement itself, it needs a certain more reflection to it, the movement has become too divided on many fronts, at least I think that way, so it needs again some sort of, especially from a European perspective, it needs some kind of objective, what is it actually, what we are looking for now, a more concrete formalizing of what it is we have done locally now in these past ten, fifteen years, but we have to re-articulate them in a new way, in a new political way to bring that further, to push that further into a new level, and yeah maybe we can speak about the commons hegemony, who knows.